In this episode of The Next Level Podcast, we invited world-class coach Olav Aleksander Bu to talk about heat training and adaption, how core body temperature measurement can be practically applied to sports performance, and why thermoregulation matters for athletes. Olav is a pioneer in the field, and this podcast is really insighful. Welcome to The Next Level!
I'm Christopher Jones, your host on The Next Level podcast. In this episode, we welcome a special guest. Well known as the elite coach and sports scientist who works with Gustav Iden and Kristian Blummenfelt. Olav Aleksander Bu is on a mission to push the limits of human performance. Welcome, Olav.
Olav Aleksander Bu
Thank you so much. That was a nice introduction.
I hear already that you have a bit of a sore throat.
Olav Aleksander Bu
Yeah. We are up in the French Pyrenees, which we are normally staying at each summer and I had a visit from my family. But we really don't know whether I got this from either my daughter or whatever that has infected me. But nevertheless, it's getting better.
So on this podcast, I'd love to dive into thermoregulation. Not only with Kristian and Gustav, but also with your experience of how this applies to athletes of all abilities. So the body of course is a very complex system, and I think that you know best of all about how complex it is. But what is core body temperature? How is it relevant to performance? How does it fit in with the body?
Olav Aleksander Bu
So, simply speaking, obviously, the body is producing heat as a function of just staying alive. We are combusting fats, and proteins, and carbohydrates, combined with oxygen. And what is happening when we are training, obviously, is that we are starting to use more oxygen because we're using more carbohydrates by moving faster.
But also, as a function, as we start to move faster, it is with anything that moves – like a car or Formula 1 car or whatever, that combusts something in order to move forward – is that it not only actually moves you forward but it also produces heat.
And then, as you start to produce heat, obviously also, what's going to happen is that let's say object or, in this case, Kristian and Gustav, or any athlete, will also start to get a rise in their core temperature. So it's a very natural function of exercising. I would say it's a healthy thing, for sure. And what we also very often see is that the elite athletes are actually naturally a bit heat adapted just as a function after the exercise and have a naturally elevated core temperature as a function of that.
Talking about temperature and how this applies to athletes, heat training is quite well-known now. It’s essentially common practice. And you mentioned, there is a natural adaptation anyway. You’re working hard. You’re working with a hotter body, and you essentially perform and get better at this. What is your approach to heat training? And would you be able to provide an example about how you apply this with your athletes?
Olav Aleksander Bu
Heat training obviously is something that is very important for us. Because it is a natural function of exercising. The harder you exercise, the higher your core temperature will become as a function of that.
I won't disclose all the details. So let's say I will keep some part of it still let's say a secret, closer to the Olympics or until just after the Olympics.
But what I can say is that you see people, they're swimming in cold water. I think now a couple of years ago, there was one guy up in the North Sea or Arctic Ocean, that was swimming up between the ice flakes that are up there. And basically, what this requires that you need to do is cold adaptation. Because as we know, if a person jumps into cold water, you get a cold shock and you will actually eventually get hypothermia and you die, worst case. Because you drown in that case or any way.
But the same actually goes also for hypothermia. So when you are in hot climate, when you're exercising, you get warmer. And if you're not then exposing yourself –let's say gradually – to heat and you just try to keep climate as natural as always as comfortable as possible, and you just go out on competition day, and you expect to compete anew, like perform in heat, you will suffer. And worst case, you actually have to even stop your race because you will break down.
When you do heat adaptation, I would say that, the most – of course, this is a topic that has been researched and some of this has been done by friends of mine or colleagues of mine that are working in our team as well. And what we see is that when you do heat adaptation, obviously, you're increasing your plasma volume in the body and so on. And this can be done generally by just applying a little bit additional heat or trying to get to the climate where you are supposedly going to compete to get – let's say, that you are gradually exposing you more and more to that environment that you're going to be in. Yeah, I would say that's the simplest way to do heated heat adaptation or heat training.
However, it also works if you are heat adapted. Then, it will also work with cool weather racing. The ability of the body to perform when it gets hot works out the other way as well.
Olav Aleksander Bu
Yeah, exactly. So when you're doing heat training, what happened is exactly that you're increasing your plasma volume. And we know that the plasma volume has a good effect both on your thermal capacity, but also actually potentially increases your cardiac output or the ability to pump more blood per minute. Obviously, this is not only a benefit when it's warm. This is also good when it's a normal climate as well. Purely because it would allow you to race maybe a little bit harder before you reach a critical core temperature.
Right. And if we look a little bit more, specifically, we have a CORE sensor and we can see live data as an athlete doing heat training. What are they looking for? What do you think they should be looking for when they see their data on their watch or on their bike computer?
Olav Aleksander Bu
So I think a confusion that very often, or that still is around, is that people start comparing it with, for example, with rectal thermometers or other thermometers. Even the ones that they are using to scan their forehead or so. What we have to remember is that even if you take a core temperature pill, used in research for example, and you put one in your ear, you swallow one, and then you insert one rectally – you'll measure different temperatures there. And also, as you start exercising, there will also be different slopes to those measurements, too. And what I would suggest using the CORE, how we are using the CORE, is that we, obviously, when you put on the CORE, and you are during rest before you start exercising, you're already establishing a baseline for every workout you're doing. Of course, you see there's a variation, but there's a normal variation within let's say around 37 degrees Celsius.
As you're starting to exercise, I think most people, they really start to feel when they get hot and they really start to underperform or they struggle with performing because they just get too hot. They need to maybe open up windows to start – that was Kristian’s way out. But as you are then exercising harder, and you are in a room, it gets warm, some people they just said, "This is too hot. I can't do this anymore." An option is one, you just open up the window, or you actually just stop the workout altogether.
When you then look at the core temperature, you'll start to see that maybe now it reached 38.5 or 39 degrees Celsius, or maybe even higher. But then, you already have gotten a pretty good idea of where your limit is more or less, for how hard you can go, or let's say for how possibly high temperature you can build.
And obviously, you can go really hard for a short while without reaching that kind of temperature, and you don't need to go very hard. But if you do it for a long while, you still reach that same kind of temperature or that critical temperature. So the important thing is like to get a feeling for what where you see the range where you're moving between, let's say, "This is okay. This is more or less my baseline temperature. This is basically where I start to see that I'm really starting to struggle with continuing to performing." And as you're exercising, what you will try to target is try to get close to that ceiling and spend more and more time around that. And when you spend more time around that, you will naturally adapt more to that kind of heat.
What is important to remember is, of course, to keep a balance in this. Because, obviously, as you also get hotter, you will not necessarily be able to put out the same power that you're used to. So, of course, you need to alternate this so that you get those sessions where you're able to involve the muscle force that is required. But then, on the other side, also you want to have those sessions where you get a high core temperature, but you're starting to gradually adapt to it and get more and more time accumulated at that high core temperature.
And as a natural function of that, you will see that if you measure we are using carbon monoxide to measure hemoglobin mass. And then, we also measure indirectly the plasma volume or blood volume and plasma volume in the body as well. And then, you'll see actually what's happening is actually that the plasma volume increases as a function of that. In a sense, you can say it really is not that important that your plasma volume increases. The fact that you can do more, let's say put out the same kind of power for longer duration without fatigue is the simplest and purest and most important metric on that you're actually adapting to heat. So without making it too fancy, the fact that you can run longer with the same kind of core temperature, or that you can put out the same power for a longer duration with the same core temperature, is the most important metric you actually would be able to quantify that actually your heat training is working.
That's actually perfect. Because that was actually my second question is, how do you see that your heat training is effective? So you've answered that, which is fantastic.
So looking forward, we have a race scenario. And now, I have my live data on my watch or on my bike computer. As an athlete, what am I looking for then? Is it the same as heat training to keep in certain zones or does it change on race day?
Olav Aleksander Bu
Of course, on the race day, it depends a little bit kind of what kind of racing you're doing. But if you're doing a longer race, then it's a long day and you already are starting to see high temperatures, then of course, I don't believe in being a slave of numbers. Even though, obviously, we use a lot of technology. We are really big fan of big data and crunching a lot of numbers. But in the end, numbers are not the whole answer. You can easily surprise yourself on a day, for example. But in general, you can't expect to do something completely different than what you are adapted to.
So in a race like, for example, in Ironman, and you're racing there. Let's say, they're going to bike. You start to see that, I know that from my training, that when I get around 39 to 39.5 degrees, then I really have to be cautious because then it's just a matter of time before I'm going to blow up. And of course, if there are some guys in front of you that are pushing. And you see, "Okay. I'm not sure if this is going to be sustainable." Because I see the rise or temperature now. It will only be a matter of maybe 10, 15 more minutes before I really get there. Then I would maybe consider thinking, "Okay. Let that guy go, then the day is still young." If I pace myself correctly, the chances are much bigger that he will blow up and I will catch him on the run easily, for example.
So I think that being aware of that, okay, I know that I can do X amount of time with power. Or let's say, I know that I can stay around this temperature and I can stay there for a long, long while without being like being getting into critical territory, then that is good. But if you start to see that you are now, it's increasing too much, then depending a little bit on how experienced you are, of course, you can evaluate everything from what the situation. You see, "Oh [s**t], they are like close coming in now," so maybe I can push. Because it won't be long now before I get natural cooling, or you're getting close to an aid station and you can start pouring a little bit of water over you.
But then, on the other side, if you know that there is not a cloud on the sky, there's no wind, and you know this is going to be a long day, and you know it's going to be hot, then you need to be more paying more attention to the critical numbers and obviously your core temperature. It doesn't help to think that, "Well, I did 300 or whatever in training. And now, my core temperature is getting critical here." So I'm just going to continue to do that because that's going to push you into a domain where you won't be able to ... anymore. You might end up not doing any power at all, worst case.
And does it apply identically to elite athlete as to everyday athlete as well? Is it fundamentally the same? Or would you also see differences in the way that, let's say, an elite athlete might use the temperature compared to an everyday person just trying to be the best they can?
Olav Aleksander Bu
Yeah. So heat adaptation applies to everybody. Either you're an elite athlete or you're an age grouper. The benefit an elite athlete has is just that they train more, they’ve got more time to do heat adaptation. While age groupers maybe they train three, four, five days a week, maybe some, every day. But they don't have that much time to really adapt to the heat because again, you need to keep his balance between those sessions where you're targeting let's say a certain power or velocity, and you just need to keep a proper cooling. But then, you also have those days where you just said, "Okay. Well, it doesn't matter if I cannot put this power in our control climate if I know that my next race is going to be really warm." Then you just need to prioritize maybe finding good balance but prioritizing adapting towards what you're going to do.
In the end, what we have to remember is that you – being a little bit blunt – it doesn't help to prepare with 4-kilometer track cycling if you're going to do an Ironman. You have to like getting the long rides and that's the key or the specialization towards what you're going to get good at. And if you know there's going to be a warm day, well, then, that's a part of that kind of specialization that is required. Because you're not going to race some cold conditions or normal conditions. If you're going to race in warm condition, it means basically that has to be a part of your training and if you want to basically perform.
So this is an interesting question. When we talked about, let's say, an amateur athlete who is time crunched, there's not enough time to maybe do the level of training that they want to, does it mean that passive training, such as a sauna or a hot bath, is a basic replacement? Is that an option for me? How do you see those?
Olav Aleksander Bu
There has been quite a lot of research on a topic and where, of course, passive heat training people have or there are research indicating or advocating that passive heat training is beneficial. But I would say that for a time-crunched athlete, spending an hour in the sauna, for example, a half an hour in the sauna, is still half an hour that you could have been training instead. And I would say that all research we have been doing, and all things we are practicing, I would say that if you really want to be good at pushing higher power or high velocities when you are hot, you have to do it also during training. Passive heat training, it's an out-of-context way of adapting or trying to adapt to a heat stimulus. You basically have to just get the job done in the heat to really get the full benefit of heat adaptation, if at least based on what we have found and what we have tested.
Thinking about heat training is one way to stress the body to increase performance. I think another way is obviously altitude training, not necessarily accessible to everybody. But right now, you're at high altitude with the athletes. How do you combine heat training and altitude training? What's the approach that you take with that?
Olav Aleksander Bu
So heat, of course, is an additional stressor like you say. The same way altitude is an additional stressor. The sickness that I have in my body now, for example, is an additional stressor. Daily life stress is additional stress. Exactly.
If you're on a diet and you're trying to lose some weight, that's also actually additional stress to your body because you're in a calorie deficit. And all these kinds of extra stressors that we apply to our lives, whether it's voluntarily or involuntarily, you have to basically take into account. Because what you're trying to do is to keep your stress in balance. Sometimes, of course, you want to have a little bit extra stress and do a little bit progressive overload, which is one popular concept. And if you add heat that is, let's say, a way of bringing in a kind of progressive overload in a different way. In the same way that altitude is and so on.
And when you combine these stressors, for example, if you combine both altitude and heat, there's now suddenly two stressors that you are combining together with your training. And that means that you again now have to take that into account. So that means also, that the velocity or power that you're expecting the output has to be even lower that as well.
Basically, you can say put it this way. That you can have easy stress by putting in low temperatures, or you can have like a high heat stress by putting in high temperature. Higher temperature, obviously, people will have to reduce the power much more than if it's like a little bit of heat stress.
Same with altitude. If you go to, let's say, 1,500 meters, obviously, you can go with a higher power and velocity than if you go to 3,000 meters. The magnitude of the stress that you're applying will also affect what kind of velocity or power that you can output. And of course, if you go to 1,500-meter altitude, but now you also add heat stress as well, that actually might end up being a similar stress of let's say 3,000 meters of altitude training. Of course, it's not 100 percent comparable, but it would be the same and the output would end up with the same kind of output. So you just have to be sure that you take that into account when you combine multiple stressors in your training.
So now, a slightly controversial question. It relates to the everyday athlete. So let's imagine you have a choice between altitude training or heat training. Can you make a recommendation?
Olav Aleksander Bu
Again, it depends a little bit on what you want to achieve. So if you're going to race in the heat, heat is the obvious thing to apply. If you're going to race in the altitude, obviously then, altitude is the thing to apply. But I would say that there are more races happening closer to sea level where heat is a problem. And then, race is happening at altitude and where that becomes a problem. And also, again you can say, "Okay, why do you go to altitude?" Of course, we can break this down and make it very advanced and talk about hemoglobin mass and everything.
But in the end, what you're really trying to do is you're adding an extra stress factor to your training, which is where you are hoping for an adaptation that allows you when you come back to normal conditions to race with a higher power output or higher velocity.
Because basically, the body gets a surplus from that you are taking away that stress again. And whether that is heat or whether that is altitude, really doesn't matter because both of them do give you an additional stressor. And then, as long as you end up when you are removing that stressor to race faster, well, who cares whether it's altitude or heat. But specificity is important. That's the only consideration I would do if you are not going to have any race at altitude, then I would say that stress is stress, and simplify a little bit. But in that way, especially for an everyday athlete.
Okay. So we talk a lot about obviously data with the Norwegian method. Although, I know that you've also stressed the importance of the Schumann Approach as a coach. And if we then move that along to the idea of thermoregulation, maybe the human aspect could be thermal comfort or my discomfort, "What is my mind thinking?"
So I'd like to know if you're able to share anything about how you deal with this factor? "I feel hot, but maybe my temperature is not hot," or vice versa, "I feel quite comfortable, but my temperature is high and is perhaps impacting or impeding my performance." Do you specifically look at that? And if so, how do you address that?
Olav Aleksander Bu
So normally, of course, you get those days where your feeling is a little bit off compared to what it is usually. And in those situations, of course, you always have to learn to listen to your body. But of course, if this is a very rare situation, I would probably hold back until I feel a little bit more safe, and then you can start pushing and testing a little bit. Whether, "Okay. Let's see if really my feeling is correct here and I'm able to extract a little bit more."
Probably, that can be the case where you are able to extract a little bit more than what you usually would be able to do. But I think again, when you have those days where you are a little bit uncalibrated, it is smart to go with what you know is working for you. And then, when you start to feel, "Okay, this is still going good. This is still working well." That's the time that you can really start pushing a little bit more and see what it is.
And the same goes also the other way. If you have a day where you feel a little bit off but in a negative direction and the number says, "Hey, your core temperature is under control. This what you've done before." Of course, there are many factors that comes or goes into performance, and still, I would say it, "Okay, listen to your body." I wouldn't maybe then try to push the core temperature up where you know that you have been doing in training. I would again hold back a little bit or continue with the pacing that you're comfortable with. And then, listen. Just get the kind of confirmation that, "Well, okay, I feel a little bit off. But actually, my body is working, my power is fine, my velocity is fine. I'm getting closer. I know that I can actually start to put in a little bit more even though I'm off."
And then, maybe you come over to finish line and you feel, "I could have pushed much harder," or you maybe think, "Oh, I should have hold back a little bit." But that's of course the benefit of experience as well. When you start to do this and you allow yourself to experiment and push a little bit, you take some learnings away from that and you apply it the next time you get the same kind of conditions as well. And the more of this experience you gain, the smarter you get.
Looking at one aspect of all, for temperature thresholds. A threshold in which I can maintain or sustain the performance level. Even there be the threshold which is essentially my "game over" threshold. "That's it. The day has been done." How do you see those thresholds in terms of the ability to push them up to increase my performance threshold, or also my top limit?
Olav Aleksander Bu
The body is extremely adaptable. And of course, I think this is all the domain which is also very controversial and where one has to be very cautious also with what kind of recommendation one gives. Because there is a lot of like having a fever in the body is serious. But also, at the same time, we know that when every time you're exercising, you actually induce a kind of fever in your body. Even though it's not as a function of an infection or a lot of things, but it's more as a function of that you're doing work. Then again, we know that when you're getting up to high temperatures, there are different functions in your body that are starting to get impaired. And some of these are more critical.
So of course, I can have my opinions on maybe what I would do in certain iterations. But I think that like that it is important to stay safe. We do racing, even as elites, we do racing for fun. You can say, yes, this is work. But it's also for fun. But nobody wants to end up in a situation where you do a race and you push yourself beyond limits and you end up getting injuries for longer periods or even for your life. That's a situation nobody wants to be in.
So I think temperature, we are continuously gaining more and more insight into it. And the difference between training-induced, high temperatures, and high temperatures as a function of infections in your body. And it seems like that higher temperatures are easier, or the body is -- again, this is something where one has to be very, very cautious about giving recommendations.
But one thing that one does see, obviously, when you're racing and you're racing hot, and you're getting high temperatures, is that at the moment you stop racing the temperature drops down again. As opposed to when you have a high fever as a function of an infection in your body. And that is, of course, a good thing. Because then, you know that the high temperature you are having is actually is a function of the work that you're putting out. But then, again, we also know people are collapsing in the heat and they really need medical care afterwards.
So surely, the ability to tolerate higher temperature is trainable. So the threshold for higher temperatures can be increased. So you'll be able to tolerate more like a hypothermic condition. In the same way that if you go outside in the winter, and you haven't been adapting to too cold at all, you'll probably get quite quickly hypothermic. And worst case, it becomes quite dangerous. But again, there we see people that are specializing in adapting to cold environments. They go out in a Speedo, and they jump into the sea swimming, and close to sub-zero conditions. They do it even for, not for minutes. They do it even for, yeah, hours. And they are fine with it.
So again, the body is incredibly remarkable at adapting to the environment that we have around us. But then again, you should never expose yourself to conditions that you really haven't been training for, and that you gradually haven't been built for. And also, if you want to go more extreme, that you also have professional people around you to advise you as well. Because again, life is too precious to, how to say, wreck it. Based on one reckless, to put it that way.
Yeah, very true. So we're just remembering or reminding what happened at Kona, where Kristian was certainly at his limits. In just a recent conversation with him, which will also be published as a podcast, that he was talking about what was going through his mind as he was coming towards the line. So there was certainly from his own mind, some risk involved about maintaining that, but knowing that the temperature was quite high. So I guess in race situations that can also change, as an athlete, your mind is telling you something else than your body, the discrepancy with your body, then that's certainly another challenge you have to deal with.
Olav Aleksander Bu
So on race day, what are your practical tips for athletes? We know that we have to keep cool to be faster, cooler core body temperature is a benefit. What are your tips or recommendations on race day?
Olav Aleksander Bu
Do what you have practiced in your training, and stick to it. That is probably going to be the biggest success of them all. I would always practice what I'm going to do in a race with my athletes. So when you are then practicing for a race, that should also include some simulations where you go through routines of, let's say, what are your pre-start procedures, what do you do in order to -- if you have a target temperature that you want to stay within, what you do to make sure that you are there.
You also have a plan for, "Okay, so what did I do in my stimulations?" And then, I would even advise maybe do a minimum of two simulations as well. Because you're going to learn so much from the first simulation that you do where you are then trying to do something similar to what you do in race, where you're trying to replicate the conditions. So did you really take the learnings away from that, and then bring it into the second simulation. And you'll already see there that that's already getting much better. And then, also, you build quite a lot of confidence in your abilities, and what you can do, and how to execute. And that again, also increases the quality of what you're doing and quality on race day itself just improves as a function of that.
So I would say practice for what you're going to do. And then, simulate it. And get some close-to-real condition experience with what you're going to do on race day. And then, stick to that on race day. And don't care about what other people are doing.
Yeah. That sounds like a very sound advice. Now, I've got one last question. I think the big goal is Paris 2024. Obviously, Tokyo was a success. But you've also indicated that simply repeating the magic formula from Tokyo will not necessarily be something you can apply for Paris. Are you able to share anything on the preparational strategy, or is it all completely top secret?
Olav Aleksander Bu
No. So, of course, we're joking a little bit about that. We are wounded when talking about secrets. We are quite open. We share quite a lot as you see from the things that we publish and so on. And we have no interest in misleading people either. So it's not like we are publishing something and do something completely different data. What we publish is what we do. That's how it is.
Of course, there are some more, let's say, not necessarily details, but there's a little bit more, a deeper level stuff that we are doing that we don't necessarily share because it has more to do with development and developing competitive advantages, too, on top of the things that you see.
So for the reason why I say that what we did in Tokyo will not be good enough in Paris is, one, what's going to happen in Paris is different is going to be a different race than what it is in Tokyo. I already have been there. Done a full course recon as well of both the river and also the bike and run course. And race dynamics will be different. I think heat will still be actually a factor that one won't have to bring into the race in Paris as well. Even though it's not Tokyo, it still is going to be a warm race most likely. We don't know, it can be rain as well. But most likely, you have to prepare for that. It can be a warm race.
But the things that we are more into -- and also, as you have seen, we launched a cockpit before Tokyo Olympics. And now, basically, cockpits or aero cockpits on triathlon bikes are banned, effectively, as a function of that. And then, leading to Kona, we developed a new shoe. And then, now, that is also banned.
So we, of course, have to be a little bit cautious with what we disclose. Otherwise, we might end up with more regulations that are put in place to try to restrain development. But yeah, a big factor of it is of course understanding exactly the rules and how can we navigate within the rules. That's what we did for Tokyo. We understood the rules to the point and knew exactly what we could do. Same with Kona, we knew exactly what we could do with the shoes and what the regulations allowed for. And the same now for, of course, there are more rules in place but we know what kind of limits we can move within. And of course, that's a part of the technological development that we are taking on.
But then, on the other side are also going back to Paris is also another big challenge because nobody had done that before in history, going from Olympics and winning the Olympics, going to Ironman, and then winning Ironman, and then going back afterwards to the Olympics again, being a real contender. Surely, some people are qualified, but they've never been a part of, let's say, consider even favorites in those races.
So of course, in that sense, we are swimming a little bit upstream because we are trying to why haven't people been able to do that before. I think now with Hamburg, the race in Hamburg now this weekend, which was a complete polar opposite of an Ironman race because it was a super sprint distance. So much shorter than what is normal even.
Kristian was there all the way up and Iden, yeah. Of course, he came over the finish line first in some of it, or two first ones. In the last one, he came forward a couple of seconds behind the winner, just outside of the podium. So we know that now, we are back where we aim to be. And now, the goal is to stabilize the performance there. But it also means that, on the physiological side, one of the things that is in here, we have one and a half year less of racing now on short course than our competitors. So our competitors, they have been racing super league. They've been racing Olympic races, VTCS races. So they have this in their body in a completely different way than what we have because we are coming back there now.
So that means that the precision, the amount of research, and level of trying to understand what is really changing in the body, and how can we even perfection and make that even more precise and better, taking the learnings from the last Olympics into it as well, is a big part of what we do. So yeah, it's an even more time-consuming preparation now than it was almost into Tokyo, even though that was special condition. Now, it is special, special conditions.
Brilliant. Well, thank you very much for joining me today. It's obviously always a privilege to learn from you. And on behalf of the whole team at CORE, we look forward to continuing to support you. And also, thank you for your support as well. And I wish you all the best and for your athletes on the road ahead.
Olav Aleksander Bu
Thank you so much, Chris. I can only give that back. I just actually was on a call a little bit earlier today with some of your team members as well, where we went to some of the places where we use the CORE for research on some of the equipment we do. So I can only say thank you so much for your team as well for all the support you guys are giving us as well because you are not a small part, you're actually a substantial part in a lot of the things we do. So thank you very much.